Curse

GeniusLoci · Jun 21, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomway Ftw

I really don't see a way that you can have rangers deal marksmanship damage without it either being about flare spamming like usage of attack skills

It's the same question that paragons, sword warriors and anyone but Hammer wielders ask. I mean my Para is doing like ...well 10-15 tops lately? And she is isn't even in lategame areas

So yeah, I think bows are just fine, you need skills for them and you have such skill.

Evilsod · Jun 21, 2007, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Bows causing knockdown would be ridiculously overpowered... just look at Tundra Giants.

glountz · Jun 21, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

The question asked by the OP is not good.
Taking bows characteristics out of their context is IMHO completely stupid.
Yes, bows, with nothing else with them, suck more than scythes, axes, hammres and swords.
But less than daggers which, with no skills, suck even more.
And I don't speak about wands.
Would you, for the sake of weapon balance, boost the damage of wands/staff to 19-35 as they have the same refire rate of the hammer?
This is plain stupid.

The skills associated with the bows, that is spirits or preparations, attack skills (okay they mostly suck excepted for interrupts) completely change the game.

You just trying to say: look at the dagger: they are two-handed, make them deal 14-27 damage (which with 30% double strike equals roughly hammer's one)!

No way.

TedTheDead · Jun 21, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Well last night in AB I was called a "Fire Arrow Kurdick" more than once if that has any berring on it.

Bows are fine. Their auto damage is respectable and they have quite a bit of nasty condition and interrupt capabilities on top of it. Add in the fact they can make themselves near impossible to hit for long stretches of time....I say bows and rangers overall are just dandy.

And in PvE there is always barrage. You dont need much more than that, I love that skill when killing monsters.

Evilsod · Jun 21, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Anyone gets pissed at people who interrupt them... i've had touch rangers getting ridiculously annoyed at my Mesmer pre-MoP nerf. Much like people get extremely frustrated if you Migraine them and power return them until there team dies.

Glountz what was the point in your post? You basically said that a dagger does crap damage, when its damage comes entirely from a chain of attack skills... which funnily enough can do alot of damage, and possibly kill a player in 1. Whereas a bow does naff all damage with its attack skills because they pretty much all suck.

XvArchonvX · Jun 21, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Glountz what was the point in your post? You basically said that a dagger does crap damage, when its damage comes entirely from a chain of attack skills... which funnily enough can do alot of damage, and possibly kill a player in 1. Whereas a bow does naff all damage with its attack skills because they pretty much all suck.

I thought he was pretty clear on saying that comparing weapons alone is pointless because without skills are very imbalanced.

You have been complaining about the bow being underpowered and now you are saying their skills suck, but which is it that needs buffing? Should A-net buff the bow itself (which is what the topic of the thread seems to be about) or do they need to buff the skills? These two things are very different entirely. If you only buff the bow itself and, say, give it a better refire rate, then builds like BHA, Choking Gas, etc become a LOT more powerful than before. If you buff the base damage, then you buff all damage builds. If you buff the skills, which ones do you buff? All of them? Should a bow get damage from it's base attack (i.e. make the bow a c-space dps weapon) or should it get it's dps from it's skills (much like it currently does)? If you believe that bows in general needs to do more damage, where should a ranger stand as a damage dealer? Should they deal more dps than a paragon? Warrior? Assassin? Dervish? Should it be able to spike as well or better than these classes? What about pressure? If so, is this fair to those classes?

Quaker · Jun 21, 2007, 06:30 PM // 18:30

I think this whole discussion is pointless. Any class has to be assessed on the basis of ALL applicable aspects - weapon(s), skills, armor, range, skill of the player, etc..
And, of course there's always what I call the Teen Factor (teenagers always seem to think in extremes) - if a weapon does 2 less damage than another weapon, than it's "crap" - if it does 2 more, it's "uber" - there's no middle ground.
Most of the complainers just simply seem to not know how to play a ranger, so they blame the weapon. These are usually the same people who can't do anything unless they find a "build" for it somewhere - the people who think that the ONLY way to do TotPK is the standard B/P,mm,orders,monk group. (They don't believe me when I say I've done it several times with just heroes and henchies.)
A while ago, people were complaining about Assassins being "useless" in PvE, and yet I managed to take mine all the way through Cantha and Elona, before any buffs were done.
On the other hand - I suck at Paragon and Ritualist, but I don't blame the class (I may have simply not tried hard enough)
Yada, yada, yada - even this post is pointless.

LifeInfusion · Jun 21, 2007, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Just because Hero Battles work so well with Pack Hunters does not mean that bows suck big time.

That brings us to the question: are spears balanced in comparison to melee weapons, with the near constant Aggressive refrains up?

-Scythes: 9-41 (hits up to 3 targets)
-Bows: 15-28
-Axes: 6-28
-Spears: 14-27
-Swords : 15-22
-Wand/Staff: 11-22
-Daggers: 7-17
-Hammers: 19-35

Evilsod · Jun 21, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

Yada, yada, yada - even this post is pointless.

So we agree on something then.

Quote:

You have been complaining about the bow being underpowered and now you are saying their skills suck, but which is it that needs buffing? Should A-net buff the bow itself (which is what the topic of the thread seems to be about) or do they need to buff the skills? These two things are very different entirely. If you only buff the bow itself and, say, give it a better refire rate, then builds like BHA, Choking Gas, etc become a LOT more powerful than before. If you buff the base damage, then you buff all damage builds. If you buff the skills, which ones do you buff? All of them? Should a bow get damage from it's base attack (i.e. make the bow a c-space dps weapon) or should it get it's dps from it's skills (much like it currently does)? If you believe that bows in general needs to do more damage, where should a ranger stand as a damage dealer? Should they deal more dps than a paragon? Warrior? Assassin? Dervish? Should it be able to spike as well or better than these classes? What about pressure? If so, is this fair to those classes?

My stance on bow skills been generally crap, especially in comparison to each other hasn't changed. Either the bow needs an increase in damage, the refires need to be looked at or the skills actually need some attention. I hardly see an increase in maybe 0.25s is really going to have much of an effect on Choking Gas... as for the BHA. Most condition removals have a cast of 0.75s, your gonna be firing an interrupt off to make sure it gets hit either way.

XvArchonvX · Jun 21, 2007, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Most condition removals have a cast of 0.75s, your gonna be firing an interrupt off to make sure it gets hit either way.

Just a small note here. BHA causes dazed...dazed causes spells to take twice as long to cast...

As for the rest, I'll just settle on saying that the bow is fine, but there are some Marks skills (particularly the damage dealing ones) that could use a buff. Nothing else for me to say here really.

Soulsmasher · Jun 21, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Bows doing more damage? That would make every non-ranger QQ like no other, a skilled ranger doesn't need massive damage to cause headaches, just like a mesmer.

LifeInfusion · Jun 22, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Looking over the GWOnline thread recently, I find these snippets from posts:
http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=171

Quote:

And all the Spears vs Bows debate proves is that Spears need a nerf not Bows need a buff. The bow was perfectly fine before Nightfall.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=181

Quote:

would you rather use a one handed shortbow (spear) with a faster fireing speed or a two handed bow with practically the same base dmg (14-27 vs. 15-28 ) as the one handed shortbow but also fires slower WTH ADDTIONAL bow cocking of 1 sec AND possible chance of another recharging animation interrupting the initial cast AND a high chance of the arrow to be EASILY DODGE BECUASE EVASION WAS TAKEN OUT??

that's right, i would choose the one handed, faster, stronger, less likely to be dodged, with little start up lag and little cool down... spear.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=326

Quote:

First off, the point of this thread is that the ranger bow does less damage over time (DPS) vs even a wand.
No use of skills, just basic damage.

BUT, we are told, we have range.
BUT, it is countered, so does a spear, which is actually a one hand.
The range of a spear, vs the range of a short bow are evenly matched.
Supposedly those two have the same levels of damage output, even though a max bow is slightly higher then a max spear.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=331

Quote:

I think skills are a serious part of the issue. Look at Mighty Throw, it owns anything in the bow ranger arsenal by damage alone, plus only costs 2 adrenaline, plus takes 3s to cast vs. 2.4s on any normal ranger attack with a recurve/longbow. Or Spear of lightning compared to penetrating/sundering shot. It has 5% more armor penetration, costs only 5e, and has more +damage. Plus spears have deep wound skills, stance ending skills, and even a non-elite burning skill.

http://guildwars.incgamers.com/forum...&postcount=345

Quote:

Compared to a spear bows lack considerably in many fronts. First and foremost the one hand vs two hand issue.

These all suggest that the spear damage should be toned down.

pingu666 · Jun 22, 2007, 03:13 AM // 03:13

faster refire rate/up the damage imo

spears are pretty decent, specialy when u factor in the other hand, holding the shield (16-8al, 30hp and a net 1 damage reduction).

last time i tested bow range wasnt that huge either ( just tested again, sometimes longbow pulls me in closer?)

dervish attack skills also hit upto 3 foes....

a pet and a prep can boost dps by 10 combined, but thats 3 skill slots :/

*slight* increase of refire rate and base damage might be enough...

melandru ascended · Jun 22, 2007, 05:13 AM // 05:13

1: Bows damage is weak
2: Bows are utility weapons
3: Bows damage can be increased using spirits and preparations (FW, Kindle Arrows, etc.)
4: Spears damage is "nice"
5: Spears are kinda weak without an IAS making you allrdy spent1/2 slots on
6: Spears also need skills for more damage...

in my oppinion its all balanced as long you never rolled 16 mark and vamp hornbow with Marauders shot + Punishing shot with some spirits and preps you dont know how good bows damage can be

Destinyy · Jun 22, 2007, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

And this is what has been wrong in the game since day one.

The fact that rangers cannot inflict Deep Wound on a target or break its stance, not to mention lack of knock-down, is what made rangers utility characters. Which they shouldn't have become because it's not logical that an arrow hit cannot knock a target down or break the stance its in. Obviously, not all bows give enough kinetic energy for KD arrows and ranger KD skills should be made to work only with long and flat bows. Same goes for Deep Wound and stance breakers.

Rangers KDing is simply not possible my man. I shoot IRL (yes I know this is a game) and there is no way any arrow will take someone off their feet.

Deep wound is certainly possible tho, imagine being shot in the neck?

Stance breaking most def, someone goes into a balanced stance and you shoot him in the knee, guarentee he looses his balance... hehehehe

As for the actual post, I really dont think bows are underpowered (Except maybe the hornbow, i don't get why it's refire is so slow).

Government Flu · Jun 22, 2007, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Here are my two cents.

I don't think bows are overpowered because you have a wide variety of options when using them. You can use a shortbow for quick attacks from a short range or a flatbow with an incredibly long range for safe attacks you can use to chip away at your target.

Bows inflict several conditions and rangers are capable of stacking them much faster than a warrior, at least in terms of degeneration. Also, bows are the biggest tool for aggro control and every character that uses heroes and henchmen should carry one to assist in breaking apart large groups so you can have small battles instead of one overwhelming defeat.

I feel that a bow equipped ranger has an amazing multitude of opportunities to experience in his or her adventures and that a buff to this weapon isn't needed.

melandru ascended · Jun 22, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destinyy

Rangers KDing is simply not possible my man. I shoot IRL (yes I know this is a game) and there is no way any arrow will take someone off their feet.

Deep wound is certainly possible tho, imagine being shot in the neck?

Stance breaking most def, someone goes into a balanced stance and you shoot him in the knee, guarentee he looses his balance... hehehehe

As for the actual post, I really dont think bows are underpowered (Except maybe the hornbow, i don't get why it's refire is so slow).

Hornbow has a additional 10% penetration which is nice when playing R-spike and for extra damage output tough Vamp > penetration

GeniusLoci · Jun 22, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Government Flu - they asked if bows are Underpowered

And nope, they arent. Compared to spears you have more ways to boost your damage w/o going to second profession and just like paragons you need to put something into primary attribute. Problem is - Paragon must put points not only in Leadership (else just try to use those 10~25 energy things), but also in Command/Motivation as there aren't any Leadership Shields out there. Basically you have better stances and you can bring pets, you can apply conditions (as well as Paragons, I give 'em that) and you can play interruptor (Paragon is hardly a match for that). Not to mention you can nuke, which spear wielders cannot.

At the end it's balanced, I think, Rangers have way more options - DPS, defense, pets, interrupts, traps, etc. And anyway - this is no LOTRO, so they arend Teh DPS class (as stated somewhere

).

BTW - my Para ran here and there with some not even max damage spear until recently as I just didn't have better. Guess what - my damage didn't get sooo much better. Except for the hammers and when IASed against clothie base damage is too low ro bother with it. It's the skills that make up for it.

SotiCoto · Jun 22, 2007, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Bows do not need to be buffed.
Their range and interrupting capabilities alone are their gimmick and make them more than worthwhile...

Spears?
Who ever asks for an "Interrupt Paragon"? Hmm?
If you are just after the damage then fine... use a spear.

Bows aren't about the damage generally though. They're about being a royal pain in the arse from a distance. I cannot think of much a ranger does that doesn't involve being a complete pain in the arse... easily the match for most mesmers.

Then... if you really want damage... Splinter Weapon + Barrage (Or possibly that new Triple-Shot) is the way to go.

Admittedly though... Hornbows should either be made more useful or be chucked from the game completely. They're utterly worthless as is.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 22, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I dont deny bows on there own auto attacking arnt very powerful, They are still able to do great dps thats why they have non removable preperations, Try Melandrus Arrows + Triple shot on a enchanted Caster and ull see what i mean. Ranger can do amazing damage or they can interupt or they can trap or they can do a weaker combination of all 3. Theres alot of ways to buff ranger damage; drop Favourable winds and winnowing, then use Glass Arrows, Serpants Quickness and Fire off alot of triple, Dual and Forked Arrows and u do a whooping 100+ damage a hit even to a HM enemies in the Dessert (that all have high AL) ofc u lose most of ur ability to interupt but that the choice u have to make

So No Bows arnt Overpowered